Calling Out Bullshit: Raising Kids Who Speak Truth to Power

Ashia
Okay, this is us trying again because we don’t… I don’t know how to use… anything. Okay!

Bellamy
[Laughter] I’m so sorry.

Ashia
With that. Welcome to our enthusiastically crappy podcast where we really try and live up to the name with Revolutionary Humans and Raising Luminaries. Yaaaay! This is season two, we’re doing spring collaborations. This is Ashia Ray and today we are in cahoots with our partner in do-goodery, Bellamy Shoffner.

So last week’s episode, we talked about letting go of stigmatizing language. And we talked about how internalized supremacy pops up in the way that we speak, the dangers of Co-opting the language of revolution, that kind of good stuff. And then in this episode, we’re going to talk about cultivating brave space relationships at homes where kids can call us out on our bullshit.

It’s kind of helpful to have these little critical minions following us around and being like, “Hey, you said you weren’t going to use the word stupid anymore.” And then we’re going to talk a little bit about how to accept critical feedback without being an asshat. And then we will briefly talk about good ideas to avoid – and maybe some good ideas we did NOT avoid.

Bellamy
[Laughter] That’s right.

Ashia
Okay, so we did this. So I’m going to pretend to be shocked, because I already [unintelligible] first way.

Bellamy
Yeah, I just think that yeah, you’ll never be able to replicate the initial shock, but let’s try it.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] You said how are you? And I said, ‘How was your mother’s day?’ It’s Mother’s Day, everyone.

And I said, ‘we got a dog.’ There’s only more things to take care of.

Ashia
[screech of shock]

Bellamy
Insert shocking and awe! Yeah. So we went to the shelter. A plan many years in the making, yet, I still feel like I didn’t think it through at all. And like I made a terrible choice. [Laughter] But I’m hoping that within a few days I’ll mellow out some. But yeah, we’ve got a dog for mostly for the kids and mental health support and just teaching them more responsibility and all of that. Her name is Jupiter. And she is all the colors of Jupiter. Which is interesting. [Laughter]

She’s got a lot of patterns and things happening.

Ashia
[Laughter] Okay, so photo, there’s a dog tax, so you’re going to need to send a photo. We’ll put it in the show notes. But also, my first impression was – because so much of the time you’re just going along, minding your own business, trying to stay afloat, and then things happen to you. So my very first thought was a dog showed up and broke into your home and wouldn’t leave.

Bellamy
[Laughter] Right. That does… now, I will say it was slightly more intentional than that. But let me tell you, we were in and out of the shelter in 20 minutes. It was the fastest thing I think that’s also why I feel a little bit uneasy because it almost feels unreal how quickly it happened. We walked down the little kennel aisles and all of us were – it was so loud and we also are prone to being very sensitive. So it was also loud and sad?

And we got to the last room and the person who was showing us around was like ‘I think I have one that’ll work for you guys.’ We never seen her bark a whole bunch and this and that. We take this little dog outside She immediately jumps on the kids. Everyone’s happy, easy as can be. And we’re just like ‘okay let’s get this dog!’ [Laughter] and that’s why it feels like a weird choice because we went there to get a dog but it just happened so fast. So she might as well have just shown up at the door.

Ashia
That is awesome. I’m so glad to hear that something is finally happening with your consent. [Laughter]

Bellamy
Right? [Laughter]

But I think that’s why it feels so weird. You know, it’s almost like oh, there’s a huge life change that i chose fully and I don’t know how to be comfortable or okay with that almost? it’s a very weird retraining of whether or not I have any control over my life. Thank for helping me sort those feelings out. [Laughter]

Ashia
I kind of feel like after apartment hunting and stuff like that. I’m surprised that the kennel was not a scam. You show up. They actually had dogs there!

Bellamy
[Laughter] Right and the adoption fee was really low and they were like, ‘Oh, you just pay it come back on Monday, have her spayed and just pay it on Monday.’

Everything was just easy and nice. And I keep saying ‘well, this dog is so well behaved. This is someone’s pet!’ Someone’s gonna see us on the street and just say ‘that’s my dog.’ [Laughter] And then take our dog. [Laughter] Very uneasy. And if ever anyone listening wondered if I was anxious because my life is anxiety inducing. Yes, I’m anxious and I think someone’s gonna steal my dog. [Laughter] I’m trying not to get too attached. [Laughter]

Ashia
So maybe… I understand that you liked the colors, that she is. the colors of Jupiter, but maybe she needs like, some temporary dog hair dye? And a costume so people can’t recognize her.

Bellamy
yeah, she might. Yeah, that’s the thing she has such specific, the back of her ears look like cheetah print. It’s so weird. She has such a specific look. If somebody sees this dig, they will know it’s their dog. we can spray paint the back of her ears. [Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] wig, get her a wig.

Bellamy
[Laughter] Nothing to see here. [Laughter]

Ashia
No one will notice [Laughter]

Bellamy
No one will ever notice. [Laughter]

Ashia
I’m kind of bouncing off of our last episode, we talked about adjusting our problematic language and how it’s hard to let go of some of the old remnants. Like for my family, it’s the word ‘stupid,’ ‘crazy,’ that kind of thing. But my kids are really good at calling me out on that.

So they’re like ‘mama, we don’t say that- that’s stigmatizing.’ And it’s really, really great that they call me out on that. [Laughter] And I’m trying to figure out how, as they’re getting older, they’re actually both of them are turning 8 and 10 in the next month or two. So they are going to be getting more closed off and more silent and being more hesitant about sharing things with me. In some ways, I’m really looking forward to them developing a little bit of impulse control.

Bellamy
[Laughter] Tell me less. Please tell me… say less.

Ashia
[Laughter] If we could cut out just a couple hours of monologuing about Minecraft, I would be delighted. I hear that comes with the development of testosterone and I’m excited.

However, I want to make sure that they stay… They know that we live in a family, at least in our family, maybe not in the rest of the world. But in our family. We can speak truth to power. And even though we have power over them as their parents and we can acknowledge that – they feel if not comfortable, than they know that they’re going to be safe if we start to do something problematic.

And I particularly think about how many kids are… even kids who are raised by parents who are inclusive, and have gay friends, how many kids are nervous about telling their parents and coming out to their parents.

So how can we make sure that no matter what identities or stories or mistakes that they make, they feel comfortable – or not comfortable, but they feel safe coming to us. they know exactly what’s going to happen, what our response is going to be, what risks exist. So we can create a brave space in our family. Yeah, so I don’t know. We’ll get into it, what it means to have a brave space and stuff like that. But do you have any any personal stories or ideas? Do you feel like your kids are comfortable telling you when you’re doing something problematic?

Bellamy
I don’t know. I don’t know that I can honestly say. I think sometimes. Yeah, I can’t really think of any exact examples. So I think they’re good at speaking up generally. But maybe not about me, or to me specifically. yeah.

Ashia
I kind of thought that my kids would share everything with me because I am naive. [Laughter] But no recently, my kid did say something racist at school. And if the teacher hadn’t sent me a note, I wouldn’t know. Like he was fine talking about it once I brought it up, but he wasn’t busting through the door being like, ‘MOM, I’m RACIST! Like he has a little bit of shame. [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] I think that’s a good thing.

Ashia
[Laughter] I mean, yeah, maybe not overshare. [Laughter] But I want to make sure that he feels comfortable or not, again, not comfortable. We have to talk about things.

And I think about how much in the dominant culture were raised to stay silent. Not necessarily even for the big things but we over time, cultivate a culture of silence, hoping that if we don’t talk about something especially whilte it’s still small and there’s no proof, it’s easier to ignore that we just kind of hope that it will go away.

And that’s kind of the route that maintains power inequity, right? If we don’t address what’s going on in the room, we can pretend it’s caused by something else, or something outside of our control. And we can just hope it goes away! Like the idea of being colorblind. [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
Okay, so today, we’re gonna cover why we need to know about this, why we can’t assume our kids will always be honest with us, no matter how much we’re trying, how taking time to listen to even nonsense feedback builds trusting relationships. because sometimes the feedback my kids give me is like, ‘Mom, you didn’t give me an ice cream, you’re mean,’ and it’s like, clearly, that’s bullshit, I am lovely person.

But we still have to respond to the feedback that we personally feel is bullshit in a way that centers the the impact that they’re feeling. We’re going to talk about why we need to do it right away, as opposed to waiting until our kids are older, you know, we want to push this off, like having talks about big, complicated conflicts until they’re older. But it’s really important that we do it as soon as possible.

The dangers of letting conflict fade, or trying to let it fade without addressing it, how we train our kids to stay silent through harm, and how these little tiny things, actually open them up to abuse and grooming in the future. And then the fears that keep us back from owning our own problematic behavior, because we are humans.

Then we’ll talk about how to transform, I guess the way that we talk with our kids and be a little bit more proactive. So we can send these children out to dismantle the kyriarchy. [Laughter] And then we’ll send everyone into the world with an assignment! Do you have thoughts?

Bellamy
That sounds good. I will say that there are times that my kids question me when I’m contradicting myself, or they’re like these little ‘Oh, well, you said this was going to happen.’ So there is that it’s, I didn’t mean to imply that I am perfect, and they never have any complaints.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
They also, they’re also very interested in telling me all of the many things that I won’t do or haven’t done and can’t afford, and so they… they have their critiques. [Laughter]

Ashia
And I think about growing up, I was afraid of critiquing adults, right? Because ‘adults can do no wrong.’ It becomes nerve wracking to talk to an adult and be like, ‘what you just did was problematic,’

Because first of all, the understanding is because they’re older and supposedly superior to children, they can’t do anything wrong. So when they did do something wrong, I always internalized it and assumed it was me doing something wrong or perceiving something wrong.

And on the flip side, I was talking to, I will not identify him, a a white man with power in his company, who has a woman working for him, and she is terrible at her job. And she takes over the conversation. And she won’t shut up, even though they’re like, this is a one minute update, we need you to shut up. And they won’t give her feedback. And part of the reason why he won’t give her feedback is because she’s a woman, and he doesn’t want to, you know, critique her too much.

But what does that do in terms of – if you had a man talking too much, you would give him that feedback. And you would keep giving him that feedback until he fixed it. So that way, when he goes on to get other jobs, he will be better in other jobs. And this is part of that glass ceiling that we have for people with targeted identities where they’re not getting honest feedback from people with power, because the people with power are too cowardly. It’s just soft sexism, right? Soft bigotry in the form of… I’m just not going to try.

Bellamy
Right

Ashia
So.. [Laughter] why we can’t assume our kids will always be honest with us.

So we have a deep seated cultural norm, even in the mostradically progressive families. Kids are still being brought up with the understanding that kids speak when spoken to. I wasn’t raised with that exact language, but there is kind of a…’How dare you speak to me that way,’ right?

Or the understanding that if a kid’s taking up too much room or too much conversation, then they’re being too chatty, and they’re not observing the room and they’re not respecting their elders. So how do we actually have to talk about that? Like actively point it out to kids, so they don’t just assume that that’s the way all humans work? But it’s actually something that comes from a deep root of oppression and silencing children and silencing people without power.

And then we have that supremacist construct of the right to comfort. Who has the right to be comfortable in a relationship and in a situation? And it’s usually the person with power expects comfort. And if someone challenges them, that makes them uncomfortable, and it makes them angry because they feel entitled to that comfort.

Whereas people without power do not feel like they have a right to comfort. I don’t know how this intersects with my whiny ass kids who feel like they always have the right to unlimited ice cream, candy and comfort.

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
But I’ll have to figure out how to untangle that. But basically, raising our kids to dismantle the kyriarchy requires that we model – first model and then we practice it with them, accepting feedback with grace. And I’ve tried to do that.

And now we’re trying to push back into – especially the nine year old how to give him feedback without him just whining. [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
I don’t know how to get him to, to accept things with grace, but at least I can model it. Which means taking responsibility for the impact of our behavior, even when our kids feedback seems like it’s just not based in reality. Because I’m sure a lot of people – our first gut reaction is like, ‘no, that’s not based on reality. That’s not me.’ But very often it is! [Laughter]

Whenever I get criticism, I have to treat it like truth, even if my first gut instinct is like, ‘that’s just bullshit.’

But also not pretending that critical feedback is easy to hear not just being like, ‘Oh, thank you.’ Like, I am some above human magnanimous person who can hear criticism without having any feelings about it.

No, be honest about it. We’re going to talk about co-regulating and how to work through that. And then also just like the concept of tone policing, how do we avoid tone policing our kids while teaching them to speak respectfully, because we want them to respect people in general, they don’t get to just rail off anything they feel like talking about. They do have to, you know, read the room and, and just be not asshats.

For a brief overview of what we need to know, before we even get into this is – a brief overview of ageism, and who gets to speak. I wish I had studies to cite. But typically people with power, if they see someone with less power speaking up, even if they’re not speaking as much as the people in the room with power, they are perceived as being louder, more aggressive, and taking up more of the talking time.

Because it’s so unusual, we’re trained to notice the irregularity. And sometimes when our kids speak up to us, or someone who has less power than us speaking up to us, it can feel aggressive. And that’s just mostly based on our perception, and not actually reality. So we need to take that into account.

Yeah. [Laughter] Do you have any thoughts on tone policing, or, I mean, we all have so many stories of being tone policed.

Bellamy
[Laughter] No, I don’t, but actually, it just made me think of being in meetings or watching certain things. And when a woman is talking, sometimes it feels like the woman is talking a lot. And it’s this internalized idea of – we’re so used to male voices being centered in the grand scheme of things that sometimes it seems like, ‘Oh, you’re taking up a lot of time.’ but it’s not that much time. So it just reminded me of that, which is not about kids, but a very similar thing of the perception of who’s getting the most talking time.

And I say this in maybe a work meeting where for the most part, everyone who’s talking is a white guy and then a woman starts talking and It’s refreshing. And then also there’s like a little bit of, I don’t know, like it’s a subconscious and obviously like a not-right, but like a little bit of a feeling of ‘Oh, she’s really putting herself out there’ kind of thing.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] Like, oh, okay, it’s more like a noticing it’s not necessarily negative but more like a noticing. Yeah, I think that happens with with kids as well.

Ashia
And I did notice, when we did the winter incubators this winter, and every single one of us at some point over the four to six weeks was like, ‘I’m so sorry for rambling and going on.’ It’s like ‘You just said four sentences.’

Bellamy
Exactly, exactly. [Laughter] “Oh, no. I’ve taken up way too much of your time. With my four sentences. Yeah, this is so embarrassing of me and selfish.” Yeah, that’s, that’s sad.

Ashia
[Laughter] What I kinda like about Zoom… actually I like many things about not having to put on pants for meeting. But what I kind of like about the Zoom meetings is instead of just feeling like some people are taking up all of the time and the space –

And, honestly, I don’t go many spaces where men speak a lot. I haven’t found any information I want from them. –

But in a lot of the racial justice spaces, I go to, white women talk endlessly. They talk until all of the thoughts in their head are out for the world, not like we need them. And they just don’t seem concerned with making sure that they don’t take up more than half the time speaking in a space focused on racial justice.

And these are the same people who will be like ‘How do we get more people of color to come?” And and be like, ‘well shut up for a little bit?’

Bellamy
Shut up.

Ashia
But white women will fucking ramble if there’s very few men in the room. As soon as a man enters the room, they stop rambling, but like it just pours out.

So it used to be in these places when we’re in person. And I have this one white woman gatekeeper who’s known for rambling . And she would take over a meeting and talk endlessly for like 15-20 minutes. We would end up like missing out on the reason we came. So now with Zoom, you can see the minutes ticking by. You can actually not so conspicuously look at the time. [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
I used to think about having little bidding paddle that I would hold up. And it would be like, I’m not gonna call her by her real name, but it’d say ‘Be quiet Sarah.’

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
Or like ’10 minutes you’ve beent alking. I’ll have a number of bidding paddles that I’ll hold up at different increments like ‘It’s been 15 minutes, Sarah.’ [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
Because of zoom and because I think you can see the the minutes ticking by she doesn’t talk quite as much. She still does. But what’s nice is instead of just everyone looking at her, everyone is looking at the screen. So you can see my face being like, “Oh, my god!”

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
‘Wrap it up! Come on!’ And you got the hand motion. ‘Come on. Let’s go. Let’s go.’ [Laughter]

Bellamy
Yeah, have some music, a little music box.

Ashia
[Laughter] We do not need your notes on anti Asian racism. Your information on this is just not helpful for us. [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
So just be mindful to it. Whenever when we’re actually rambling is when we are the person with power in the room. Okay. I say as I ramble on.

Bellamy
[Laughter] That’s a nice way to sum it up.

Ashia
[Laughter] Okay, so when we’re talking about urgency – why do we need to deal with this now? We think about who is this hurting the most at the moment.

In terms of our kids? We think a lot about in our culture, which is very results based and very capitalist and very tangible based. If they address something and they can’t prove it, like they can’t cite specific examples, or they don’t have recordings of it. Then we shut them down, because like ‘that never happened,’ or like, ‘Oh, you’re misremembering.’

What they learn is not to report harm or discomfort or a problem in our relationship until it’s gotten so out of control that they have unequivocal proof. And it also kind of leaves them more vulnerable to gaslighting and grooming.

And that’s one of the things that people use in tone policing. And not saying that people do it intentionally. But someone says like, ‘You hurt me with this behavior.’ And they’re like ‘When? Cite specific examples. give me dates and times on the conversation.’

Because regardless of whether or not they can prove it, they’re feeling like this. So what you need to do is focus on the feeling.

So we raise our kids to have some hesitation about saying no or speaking up every time that we shut them down, even if we’re shutting them down in a nice way and be like, ‘Oh, that’s nice, honey, sorry about that.’ And then not really listening about what they’re actually feeling about it.

So this expectation of silence normalizes that right to comfort in supremacist culture. And it kind of trains our kids – we’re training them, we want them to be upstanders. We want them to intervene or go get help or not just settle for harm that’s happening. Except for when it comes from us. [Laughter]

Bellamy
Right.

Ashia
And we see this in particularly anti oppression groups and community organizing, where the person with the most power is actually facilitating the most toxic behavior because they’re used to the power. they’re used to the right to comfort and “I’m working so hard, and therefore you guys can’t challenge me on everything!”

And it’s really hard to resist that, especially as you become more accustomed to being the person in the room who is expected to speak. Yeah. Do you have any thoughts about how that impacts our kids?

Bellamy
I don’t.

Ashia
[Laughter] Mmkay. And then it hurts ourselves, obviously, because we can’t improve without honest feedback, right? If we don’t have something in place to solicit and accept and respond to feedback in a way that feels safe for other people, we’re not going to get feedback. And then we’ll end up being Putin, right? No one wants to invade Ukraine! Except for that one guy who lives in a little cubicle of Yes Men.

And then it also just weakens our relationships. So much of what we do is accomplice work and self advocacy work. And it’s going to weaken our relationships with those with less power, or people that we’re trying to help. If they can’t feel safe being like, ‘Yeah, what you’re doing is actually kind saviory, problematic, actually hurting us deeply.’

So when we talk about how it harms our accomplices, you know, that concept of ‘We don’t talk about THAT’ – doesn’t mean it’s not there. And I like to think most of us have moved into like, let’s talk about it, rather than not talk about it. But I think we all have some things where we’re like, ‘Can we just like put this conversation off indefinitely?’

And then the people that we’re working with, can’t be completely honest with us, because we’re too fragile, right? And then those people, instead of confronting us, working through it, and building a strong relationship, just do the slow fade, like when someone slow fades or ghosts you.

Sometimes it’s just because they’re a coward. But they’re also just, maybe they don’t feel comfortable or safe being like, ‘Yeah, I don’t think that you’re going to hear what I have to say. And I don’t think you’re going to change if I do.’

And then if there’s no clear accountability response, proactively being like, ‘Hey, if I’m doing something problematic, here are people you can talk to about it if you don’t feel comfortable talking to me.’ Like building the security network for our kids.

But also, our kids will come up with like a worst case scenario as they build up with their own anxiety about what we could potentially do, if we don’t be like, “Here’s how I would respond in this example scenario.” right?

And that’s the case for anyone with any kind of power, any kind of organizing or community work, because you have to have an accountability policy that says, “Here’s how I will respond. Here’s what protections I have made sure you have in place. And here’s the consequences to me if I don’t respond in a way that that is safe for you.”

Because why would they risk it? [Laughter] And then it’s also – the person who is being hurt is usually the only one who’s going to notice the conflict. If we’re causing harm, we’re not going to notice it because we’re not feeling the pain. So that puts the onus on the person to be like “Is now a good time? Is now a good time to point out that they did something racist?” [Laughter]

Jimmy, get away. My cat’s trying to steal my phone. Okay. Okay, get! Get out!

[Laughter] Enthusiastically crappy!

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
We’re watching out for false trust, that’s one of the things that we want to watch out for is people who are like, “Oh, we have the kind of relationship where they trust me. I trust them. Were totally honest with each other.”

You can say that. and you can tell your kids like, “Let’s be honest with each other. You can trust me,” But that doesn’t mean anything without some sort of practice behind it. Because there’s a lot of [Laughter] whenever someone says, “I’m a good person,” you’re gonna be nervous!

[Laughter]

How?! [Laughter] Makes me scared. Yeah. So do you have any thoughts about other What did I miss? [Laughter] Who does that hurt the most? When we are …fake honest, I guess.

Bellamy
I don’t have any thoughts. You’re being very thorough, and I am being very tired. [Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] Which, which, here, let’s build up the suspense. We’re going to weaponize that in Our Good Ideas to Avoid segment!

Bellamy
[Laughter] I really resisted the urge to say ‘betcha can’t wait!’ I don’t know why. I don’t know why that came to my head.

Ashia
[Laughter] Let’s slowly pick up infomercial style slogans.

Bellamy
[Laughter] Right.

Ashia
[Laughter] Okay, so in terms of what keeps us from changing – so what are the roadblocks in place that are keeping us from changing?

That’s something that is going to be different for everybody. There’s like, you know, what are our trauma responses? I have a fear of abandonment. So I always have to work through some mental gymnastics about like, “If I am honest about what is happening” or my slight discomfort with someone, they’re just gonna drop me and run away. So some of it is just our own baggage.

But then there’s also more cultural stuff. Stuff that we have been built into the way that we socialize in our culture, that maintain that culture of silence. And you think about The myth of colorblind fallacy where people are like “If we don’t talk about racism, it will eventually disappear.” [Laughter]

Which only silences people who are affected the most by racism, right? It’s both cultural and it’s an individual problem.

So when we think about, part of creating brave spaces for our kids is understanding – what are own personal baggage is? And then talking to our kids a little bit about it.

Not like, you know, not using our kids as a personal therapist. But being like, “yeah, I sometimes have a hard time being honest with people who have power over me, because I’m worried that they’ll take away my housing, or my job,” that kind of thing.

Without pointing out that it’s bullshit, because sometimes we really are in danger if we speak truth to power.

And what kind of fears keep us from owning up to our own problematic behavior? So for example, I have this situation where I kind of lost it on my kids once, and I replicated my childhood, like what happened when I did something wrong. And I just went to town on their room. Just picking things up and throwing them down. Picking up a hamper and smashing it. And I was like, “You can’t be like this.”

My kid had run over a small child on his bike.

[Laughter] Oh no!

And I was like, ‘You can’t…!” [Laughter] I was pissed! I was like, ‘You can’t do that!’ It was on purpose and aggressive. So I was like, “Oh, fuck no” Right? So I did some old school parenting where I was like… I smashed a hamper. I think? I was like, “I’m not gonna hit YOU. But I need you to internalize this is a big fucking deal!” right?

Whereas our parents used to be able to be like, “I will never hit you… Unless!” [Laughter] I talked to my mom yesterday. And she’s like, “Oh, yeah, I made sure Ashia new that if they did anything wrong…I’d break their face!” [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] That was such a mom thing to say?

Bellamy
Yup. Yup. [Laughter]

Ashia
How do we… I’ll move a little bit more in the gentler side and be like, “I will smash your hamper!”

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
Still, it’s still intimidating. It’s still parenting in a threatening way. And I still shouldn’t do it. It was definitely a mistake. So one of the things that I feel in my gut is – ‘Maybe if I never mention it again, they’ll forget! They can just… we’ll leave it behind!’

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
Obviously not! I did it to encode something in his brain, without being my best self. I completely messed up. And despite the fact that I apologized, tried to make amends, it’s still something you can’t undo. But I still feel that urge to be like, “I wonder if they still remember that? Maybe if I just never mention it…” But no, they remember, they mention it, and then I have to be like, “Aaaah [shame sounds]’

[Laughter] having to own up to it. That’s tricky. Yeah. I mean, I feel like I’ve had so many minutes, times, instances where I wasn’t my best self, but just solely based on the amount of pressure and stress I am constantly under.

Bellamy
I’ve often tried to be the best I can be under the circumstances, under the circumstances, which is still not good. Because the circumstances were so bad. But I always apologize, I always explain. I always try to, you know, age appropriate as I can be, say “this is not about you. I’m real tired. This is really hard. It’s really not about you. And I’m sorry that for even a moment I made it feel like it might be about you, because it is truly not.”

And so I haven’t smashed the hamper, but I’ve definitely, you know, lost my temper and just not been my kind of self. And yeah, I wonder what the difference is, in my kids ability to be able to speak up when they have one parent.

Because it’s like, “Well, we’re stuck with you, no matter how terrible you are.”

I’m like that’s not good. So I think I also have a bit of overcorrection of “Oh, no, no, no, please. It’s not you. I’m not mad at you.” To try to balance that out some. But yeah, it’s hard because it’s like also sometimes I AM mad at you, but like [Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] Sometimes you’re just being an asshole.

Bellamy
[Laughter] Right. But the overreaction is not ever your fault.

Ashia
Yeah, oh, that’s such a good point. And I think the times when I lose it the most is when I’m feeling under pressure because I know that other parents are watching. The school is watching.

You have that ladder of inference where you’re like, “This means this is going to happen, which means this is going to happen, which means this is going to happen.” And for me, it’s usually the pressure of knowing other adults are seeing them do these things. And then those adults are going to call Child Services and have them taken away because I’m an incompetent parent. So very much from fear.

Or, like, my kid does something at school where he kicks another kid. And I’m like, “You can’t do that. Other kids can do that. You can’t do that! You are the kind of kid with a disability, where they will call the cops in, and then you’ll get more dysregulated. And then the cops will…”

There’s too many stories about people doing that to autistic kids – calling the cops because you’re getting dysregulated. And like you can’t afford to get dysregulated at school. It’s not safe for you. But I don’t have control over it. And that’s when I start, you know. AAAHHGG

Bellamy
Yeah, I think so much of it is about fear. So much of it is fear based. Because it could be like you said, other other adults seeing what’s going on or seeing how you parent or how they perceive you must parent by the way your kids behave.

And then also, in house as the kids get older. It’s like, “Oh, no, you’re 10. And you’re still doing this thing. Like why?” [Laughter]

[Laughter]

And then there’s this panic, there’s this worry that you’re ruining the child! Yeah, and none of it’s fair to the poor kids. They’re just trying to be kids. And we’re like, “Let me save you.” It’s awkward.

Ashia
And it’s so hard to break out of that. Because our generation – for many of us, the only tool that our parents had was intimidation, right? Our parents didn’t have talking it through, child therapy, all of the toolks that so many parents with power and privilege and wealth had?

So the only way you can get a kid in line is to smack them or threaten to smack them? Right?

We’re going to dismantle that. And I often think about – when my kid is just being a dick. I have no tools in my toolbox other than scaring the shit out of him. So I’m lost. I have no idea what to do. I’m like, “You’re in timeout?” And they’re like “No, I’m not.” Like AAAAHHHH I don’t know what to do!

Bellamy
[Laughter] Yeah, nobody tells you what to do. We’re trying to rewrite this book. And it’s like, No one has any information about how to do it. And also about how to do it in a way that’s not overly gentle.

Gentle is maybe cute when they’re four, but they’re old. And they’re huge. And they need to, you know, they have to have more boundaries. And they have to have a better understanding of, “Yes, do this, please.”

“No, no, don’t ever do this.” Yeah, nobody tells you how to do it. And sometimes I tell my kids that. Sometimes I tell my kids “Look, when I was a kid, I was treated poorly in various ways. And I was hit and I was this and I was that. And I’m making every effort to not do any of those things with you.”

“And also, that means I don’t know what I’m doing.”

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] “I don’t know what I’m doing. But you know, if you can please stop lightly punching me while we’re in public and all the other adults could see you? that would be great.” [Laughter]

Ashia
There’s so many… every kid is different. So there’s so many people who are like, “Oh, well, what you could do is you get to get down on the ground with them. And help…”

And Yeah, but everyone has limited resources. Sometimes we are tired. Sometimes that just doesn’t work for our child. Like my kid, where he goes into a place and people are like, “wow, those parents spoil him rotten.”

And I’m like, “No, I have never once conceded to anything he asked for when he’s being a jerk. He just… that’s just the way his brain works. And he’s got to let it go out.”

Oh, but the thing that you said about always reminding them that it’s not about them. Like when we have a shitty reaction and we fly off the handle and our throw our little tantrums. It’s so helpful to point out.

I remember doing that with my kid like, “I just lost it. And that’s because I’m scared. It’s not your fault. You’re not doing anything wrong.” Like yeah, don’t kick that kid in the face. But “my reaction was disproportionate and that is not your fault. That is all on me.”

But then also yeah, having just the single parent because you don’t know…you don’t have anyone else to go to. I was raised by a single parent and it was definitely like if anything happens between this relationship. No one will catch me. Right?

It’s so hard to have to be a single parent knowing that you have disproportionately more power over your children than you want to have.

Bellamy
Yeah.

Ashia
And you don’t want them to feel afraid and you want them to feel safe or, you know, like, they’re going to be okay if they if they challenge you. They’re not going to lose their sole connection to the rest of humanity. And we can try to build security networks with other people in it. But that also relies on other people showing up and and most people don’t. [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] Yeah, and it takes time. And also I think as much as I understand that my network of people is sort of becoming more solid, or the kids network is becoming more solid over time. It still all falls on me, you know, it’s still in the end. For right now. It still is my stuff to deal with and my responsibility and yeah, it’s too much pressure.

Nobody wants this much responsibility. It’s not, it’s not ideal. I don’t recommend it.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] yeah, and so it’s very hard to find some balance. And it’s also like, well, it’s just you and me. So you, you really have to listen to me, you really have to trust what I am telling you and what I’m requesting of you, is what’s best for you. And that also means that I have to feel 100% sure about what…

How did you get in there?!

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] I’m recording!

Ashia
People can’t see Bellamy’s face, but the door slowly opened, the light came in as Bellamy’s eyes widened and ‘HOW DID YOU…?!’

Bellamy
[Laughter] [to child: ]Okay, also where’s the dog?

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] [to child: ]Okay, leave the cantelope.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
[murmuring] More?

Ashia
[sings] Enthusiastically crappy podcast!

Bellamy
[Laughter] I’m sorry. I thought I locked the door.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
But I was rushing beforehand, so I must have forgotten or I was so worried that something would happen dog-wise, and they would need to get in.

Ashia
the thing is, if peoplewant to listen to a podcast where kids aren’t barging into our, closets that were locked in, then they’re gonna have to listen to people who talk like they’re on the Moth, and it’s, it’s a trade off.

Bellamy
[laughter]

Ashia
[unintelligible rant against the earnest tone of the Moth] So angry. So if they want our specific brand of enthusiastic crappiness they’re just gonna have to deal with the interruptions. [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] And in case anybody could barely hear him and is wondering, he was asking for a tub of guacamole when it happened, because we need to keep recording.

Ashia
[Laughter] I’m not knocking this. We’re not going to redo it. It’s enthusiastically crappy. Okay

Bellamy
Yeah it’s great.

Ashia
Okay, good ideas to avoid duh dun dun da da dun!

Bellamy
Do do doo.

Ashia
[Laughter] Okay, so today Do you have any good ideas that popped up…

Bellamy
[door creaking & child talking sounds]

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
Really need that information? he came back to tell me exactly where the dog is. Like wait, let me give you the exact spot [Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] In case you’re worried she jumped off the balcony.

Bellamy
[Laughter] Right.

Ashia
Okay, so I don’t know if you had any good ideas to avoid because I know you took one good idea and you actually did it – in terms of getting the dog.

right

[Laughter] But if you have any good ideas to avoid feel free otherwise I have one locked and loaded

Bellamy
I can’t think of one off the top of my head.

Ashia
Okay. So sometimes we touch on this – haven’t thought it through, shouldn’t think it through – is this new show that Bellamy and I could work on called ‘OverPlanned and Under-Prepared’ a puppet TV show!

And it’s basically us as Muppets! Right? With our speak to the manager terrible haircuts? Although Bellamy says her haircut’s bad – I like your haircut. But basically, both of us have hair that’s just standing straight up at the moment! [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
And it just it’s conducive to being a muppet. [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] I’m just thinking like, as long as we have these haircuts, why not make Muppets of ourselves and then have a little Muppet Show? Where it’s basically every episode is we have our Speak To The Manager muppet haircuts, and Ashia – I run circles around Bellamy while just squawking the entire time and Bellamy’s just you know, calm?

[Laughter] I’m like, ‘Oh, they talk a lot.’ [Laughter]

[Laughter] Every time we have a conversation, it’s just me going ‘Whaaaa lalala!’ and I infodump and I talk and… I’m sure you can picture in your head. It’s like the Muppet with its head held back because it’s running so fast and its arms flailing around, just infodumping on where rocks come from!

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
And how it’s connected to white supremacy! [Laughter] And then when I stop to catch my breath, Bellamy will say one sentence that summarizes it in a much more succinct, accurate way.

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] Alternatively, it could be an advice TV show where people ask us for advice and my advice is genuinely terrible. And then Bellamy

Bellamy
[Laughter] I come in with the quick easy fix.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
Yeah. [Laughter] I like it. Show ideas. I like it.

Ashia
Right? We would make the best Muppets!

Bellamy
[Laughter] I’d love to be a muppet that will be so fun.

Ashia
[Laughter] although now there’s finally an Asian muppet on Sesame Street. So true to American media, since there’s already one Asian there’s not really room.

Bellamy
That’s it? That’s all you get. [Laughter]

Ashia
We have Awkwafina The really obnoxious Anti Black, Asian comic relief in all of the movies. We have that one Asian method on Sesame Street and in maybe 10 or 20 years another person gets to get a chance.

Bellamy
Yeah right. It’ll take some time. There’s just no space.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
I don’t know what you’re complaining about. There’s [Laughter] there’s no more [Laughter] there’s no more roles to be played. There’s no more shows to be made.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
this is impossible. [Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] There’s so many REALITY DATING TV shows tho.

Bellamy
[Laughter] this is true – but also… Shout out to what’s her name? April? On… Come on. Come on. Not ‘the circle’ the other one. The one with the..

Ashia
[Laughter] The Ultimatum?

Bellamy
Yes!

Ashia
The Filipina who talks about herself in the third person

Bellamy
[Laughter] Yeah, shout-out to April. April knows what she wants and she’s not afraid [Laughter] to get it.

Ashia
[Laughter] I think we need to have an entire episode where people don’t watch the ultimatum. We just explained what happens. And just explaining what happens is so fun to listen to. Because it’s a bad TV show on a bad premise. [Laughter]

Bellamy
So good! [Laughter]

Ashia
So good! Very gorgeous, clueless young people.

Bellamy
[Laughter] I can’t… we were talking about changing our language. So I guess I can’t say what I originally said.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
But to cure any listeners curiosity. I think I call them pretty idiots? [Laughter]

Ashia
No, like, bunch of gorgeous dumb-dumbs, I think?

Bellamy
Yeah. [Laughter] So mean. It’s mean, I’m sorry.

Ashia
[Laughter] Okay, so alternatively, we have a reality TV show cast entirely by Muppets. [Laughter]

Bellamy
Yeah. That works.

Ashia
Okay, but ‘Over-Planned and Under-Prepared,’ a puppet TV show, that is the end of our Good Ideas To Avoid! doo doo doo, doo.

Bellamy
Doo doo!

Ashia
Okay, as always, instead of sending you spiraling into a pit of despair now that you know that this problem exists, and all of us do it – in terms of fostering a culture of silence, if we want to create brave spaces, (not safe spaces, there’s no such thing as safe spaces)

But brave spaces, where we are perpetually trying to stay in the growth zone of discomfort without dysregulation. … But how?!

I like to, you know, put some tools out there so we don’t end up being like, “Gaaah!”

Okay, so how are we going to transform the way we address conflict, while also raising kids who understand a new way of being?

I’ve been trying, trying out the concept of co-regulation, which briefly is, instead of being this stoic, always calm adult, where our children are losing their shit and we’re like, “Okay, if we model what it’s like to not have feelings, eventually they too will look like they don’t have feelings.” [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] That’s not what I expected you to say.

Ashia
[Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] It’s funny cause it’s true.

Ashia
Right? I remember thinking for the first bunch of years of their lives, I was like “Okay, if I just keep a blank face, then they will eventually…” I will breathe deeply, they will learn how to breathe deeply and be like calm down.

It’s like the body language communication equivalent of “Calm down.” [Laughter]

Bellamy
Yeah. [Laughter]

Ashia
So co-regulation is allowing yourself to get a little bit dysregulated, you know, within a window of tolerance, where you’re not dangerous, you’re not breaking boundaries or anything like that. But you’re allowing yourself to be like, “Oh my gosh!”

So now what I do when my kids are struggling to just be annoying, or like, you know, really just being difficult. What I do is I speak out loud, like, “You screaming in my ear is kind of freaking me out. And I am going to breathe deeply to try and get through this without smashing a hamper.” [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter] done that once, never again,

Ashia
[Laughter] I’ve learned my lesson, we all make mistakes. So I’ve been doing that. And it worked. It was so weird. It worked almost instantly. I did it three times in one day while I was cooking dinner, one kid came bounding in here screaming in my ear. And I’m like, “You screaming in my ear is really messing with me” [exaggerated breathing sounds]

And it’s focused not on asking them questions, not on feeding into their dysregulation, but pointing out how their dysregulation is impacting you without blaming them. Not saying like, “you are causing me to be upset,” but like “this screaming – this behavior that you’re doing, here’s how it’s dysregulated me, here’s what I’m doing to regulate myself.”

And then within 45 minutes, my kid came in dysregulated and started putting his hand on his chest the way that I was doing it, and then breathing through it. And I was like, Oh my gosh!

Bellamy
[Laughter] Magical

Ashia
Magic! So it’s really important that when our kids come to us with these, it is dysregulated to hear – especially when they’re criticizing us, or they’re saying “You’re a terrible parent and you did all these terrible things!”

And you’re like, “That’s not how I remember it, buddy.” You just accept that that’s their truth. That’s the impact.

And then you’re like, “Okay, yikes, because I’m a human,” regulate yourself in front of them. talk through what you’re doing, especially for kids who don’t pick up on body language. And then model speaking and receiving truth to power.

So when I am afraid to talk to someone or afraid to respond or, speak truth to bullshit, I will talk about it with my kids. And I’ll be like, “Here’s what I’m afraid could happen to me or us, here’s what I’m afraid the consequences are, here’s why I’m choosing to do it,”

or “here’s why I’m choosing to keep myself safe.”And that’s totally valid.

So modeling it, but also modeling receiving it – not in a stoic way, but in a way that we regulate ourselves in front of them and be like, “Wow, that makes me feel like a really terrible parent.”

And like, “I am glad you told me that, that’s hard to hear.” It’s okay to admit that it’s hard to hear without blaming them. So pointing out how it feels.

Pointing out the risks or even that ladder of inference, because my kids will go from zero to 1000 really fast being like, “My brother said, He wants one extra minute on video games, which means forever, that’s going to happen, which means he’s always going to have everything, which means I’m going to die in a ditch.”

[Laughter] They go very fast. So for me to talk through my own ladder of inference, like, “I’m afraid that because you kicked that kid in the face, everyone’s gonna think I’m a bad parent, you’re gonna get placed into a different home.”

And then I point out how that’s ridiculous. Because I don’t want them taking on my fear. I don’t want them extrapolating and earning my anxiety.

But really focusing on what we’re working towards. And then once we once we’re on the same page, we’re both dysregulated. We both are having a hard time then I named what our common goal is, or even ask them “Okay, what’s more important? You getting more chocolate, or you and me having a good relationship as you get older,?”

Most of the time, they will say the higher order, “I want to maintain this relationship, “sometimes they want the chocolate. [Laughter]

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
“Mom, I want the chocolate. you can die in a ditch.”

Bellamy
[Laughter] It all ends with somebody dying in a ditch. Weird.

Ashia
[Laughter] That’s where my ladder of inference always goes.

So doing that, once you’re on the same page about what your common goal is, they kind of – they come down off of that dysregulation. And then we can shift.

It also helps me shift from feeling criticized and attacked into being like, “Oh, we actually have a common goal.” So my feelings, while valid are kind of irrelevant, and now we need to focus on our common goal.

And then the other thing is addressing tension before we have proof. checking in with our kids and being like, “hey, something feels weird.” And if they say no be like, “Okay, it’s impacting me. something feels weird. If you want to talk about it – here’s what’s going to happen, here’s how I promise to respond. I’m not gonna hit I’m not gonna scream, I’m not gonna take away your video games.”

Because so many parents are like, “You’re safe to tell me things,” but then they punish their kids for telling telling them the truth.

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
Yeah. So I have my little accountability process of how to accept critical feedback without being an asshat. But do you have any tips or tricks that you, you’ve fallen back on?

Bellamy
Um, no. I mean, maybe just listen and pause. And if you feel that your initial reaction might be an overreaction, or out of line, or denial, just put a pause on the conversation.

“Thanks for telling me, I’m gonna think about that for a little bit. And we can talk about it later.” Rather than react horribly.

Ashia
[Laughter] Nice.

So I broke it down into eight quick steps, including when the feedback is genuine bullshit, because it doesn’t matter whether their feedback is based on you know, them just wanting more candy. Or it’s actually hurting them – because it does not matter. We have to accept their feedback as true, at least for a little bit.

So having a policy ahead of time is really nice. The kids know that I’m never going to punish them if they if they come home and tell me like, “Hey, Mom, I did something racist!”

And then, you know, saying ‘thank you,’ whenever someone challenges me. I write a lot of articles, I make a lot of stuff, I say a lot of things. And most of the time my language is off. I say something that didn’t land well with people and they give me feedback.

And my first thought is like, “How dare you? I’m doing my best!” I don’t say that though!

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
I say “Thank you. Thank you so much. That must have been like hard to drum up the courage. because you don’t know me. It must have been hard to bring that up. I appreciate you taking the time and the effort.”

And then taking some time, like Bellamy said.

But also naming the impact. You know, like when the teacher told me, my kid did something racist. I was like, “That was really racist” what he did, because people who are giving you feedback are probably feeling some sort of pain or discomfort, and they need to hear you actually name it.

As opposed to being like, “oh, sorry about your feelings” [Laughter]

[Laughter]

But it being the impact. And then internally centering who is most impacted by this? Who is most at risk? What are the odds I’m actually going to die in a ditch versus this person, I really do hold power over this person, like I could slander them, I could, you know, alienate them in some way.

So centering the person most impacted – and sometimes that’s going to take a while, which is why Bellamy’s idea to wait a little bit is a really good idea.

And then, like I said earlier, naming a common goal. Once everyone’s a little bit calmer naming what is our common goal here? And then setting boundaries.

Because I’ll be like, “Well, our goal, you and me, kiddo, our goal is we can maintain a relationship long past you moving out of the house growing into adulthood. What I will not do, however, is allow you to eat candy to the point where you develop type two diabetes at the age of seven.”

I will not do that. I’m going to have some boundaries around that. But knowing my boundaries, what is your goal with this? right?

And then asking, ‘What does justice look like for them?’ Like what does it look like for me to make up for that damaged hamper? Is it replacement? Is it apologizing?

In transformative justice and restorative justice? It’s a survivor centered approach. So what does it look like for you?

Which doesn’t mean you have to do it. My kids apologize all the time to each other and ask ‘what I can do to make it up to you?’ And sometimes, the ideas they have are unreasonable.

Bellamy
[Laughter] My kids do ‘Is there anything I can do to help?’ The answer is almost always no.

Ashia
Yeah. The answer is almost always a hug, which is really nice for us, like ‘I need to hug. I need you to hug me.’ But sometimes, ‘I need you to move out and give me all of your candy.’ [Laughter]

Bellamy
Right. [Laughter] I think my kids are like “No, I have to play with you anyway, so I’ll just get over it.” [Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] There’s nothing you can do. The world is a hellish landscape.

Bellamy
Right. [Laughter] And then you die in a ditch. It’s fine. [Laughter]

Ashia
[Laughter] Reinforcing boundaries or affirming boundaries based on completely ridiculous responses. Usually what people ask for is reasonable. Like most people, if they genuinely are hurt, they’re just asking to be heard or whatever. And sometimes some of our more dramatic kids can be a little bit unreasonable and it’s okay to establish boundaries.

So that’s how we’ve been working on how to create a brave space in our family. I don’t think I’ll know if it worked or not until they become like 20 or 30. And Do or do not go on a mass murder spree? It’s hard with parenting, you don’t know if what you’re doing is actually working. But that’s what we’re doing.

Bellamy
Can’t say. Not sure.

Ashia
Yeah, [Laughter] I’m not gonna say it works for everybody. It’s working for us. So far.

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
No one has yet died in a ditch!

Bellamy
No one’s died in a ditch. [Laughter]

Ashia
We’ve fallen into ditches, but we have gotten ourselves out.

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
So, quick shout out to our communities. We have more people joining the Books For Littles newsletter to get podcast episodes and stuff like that. And people are responding and reciprocating in ways that are very wholesome and helpful. And I really appreciate you guys, you people. [Laughter]

Bellamy
Woo hoo!

Ashia
Also, I took a break from the internet for like a week and my luminary brain trust people maintained conversations and started posts, and it was wonderful. Like, I don’t have to, I don’t feel that obligation to constantly be on top of things, or else everyone will fall apart – because people are coming together.

And it’s so lovely to see everyone helping each other.

What’s going on with when we gather in the revolutionary humans community?

Bellamy
Oh no. You put me on the spot. What’s going on in When We Gather? We are gathering. We’ve got a few members. And we have a book club meeting coming up and a discussion about courageous parenting – coming up next week, I think, and so you can go to revolutionaryhumans.com to find out more info.

Ashia
Yaaaah Sign up for when we gather!

Bellamy
Woo yeah, awesome!

Ashia
There’s an exercise today – there’s a graphic exercise. And there’s some writing prompts. And they actually directly tie into what we talked about today.

What does courage look like? What does it look like to overcome some of the things that you’re having conflict with with your own kids. And they’re very helpful next step things if you want to continue this work.

So this week’s assignment is commit – create a simple response policy, and make sure your kid knows about it, right?

Because it’s one thing for us to know, “Oh, this is what I’ll do.”

But if our kids don’t know, it’s kind of worthless. So quick, 1-2-3 response policy, what are they going to hear from you? And then tell your family about it.

But also share your tips. Tell us about it. How do you create a brave space with your kids? What did we miss? What terrible ideas do you disagree with?

Because we want to hear your feedback. We will we will thank you for that feedback.

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
And we will not… we want to push you into a ditch. So yeah, leave your commitments in the episode comments: thats raisingluminaries.com/podcast or leave a voicemail and let us know if you want us to play it on the next podcast or not. That’s really cool of you.

It’s 781-342-0486 and we want to hear voicemails, that’d be fun.

Bellamy
That’d be so, so fun.

Ashia
And join the When We Gather courageous conversation coming up.

Okay, so next week, I have no idea what we’re talking about. But I will be back next week. Maybe Bellamy will too. And everything you need is in the resources and we’re going to make a transcript of this post. Links in the show notes at raisingluminaries.com. Yeah.

Bellamy
woo. yeah.

Ashia
[Laughter] And we’ll try and get a picture of the new doggie. Okay.

Bellamy
[Laughter]

Ashia
Bye, everybody!

Bellamy
Bye!